# St Barts Forums > St Barts Island Main Forum >  >  The Billionairs Clash Over the Future in a Caribbean Eden

## 17.9000° N, 62.8333° W

https://dnyuz.com/2022/03/02/billion...aribbean-eden/

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## LuckyKid

From NYTimes.com. The source of the article. 
Link should be unlocked.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/t...smid=url-share

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## JEK

The author reached out to several forum members, but apparently their quotes were not noteworthy  :Big Grin:

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## elgreaux

> The author reached out to several forum members, but apparently their quotes were not noteworthy



clearly. and the only quibble I have with her article is that St Barth was electrified before the 1980s. Not the entire island perhaps, but certainly the hotels and most of Gustavia had power as of the 70s. It is also too easy to qualify the island as a playground for billionaires, but I guess that's the reputation it has now...

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## TR561

What are they going to do with the large piece of property, now ?

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## elgreaux

> What are they going to do with the large piece of property, now ?



They will most likely get a permit for a smaller hotel...

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## Jim Kelly-Evans

Sad to read that article.

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## Max1030

> They will most likely get a permit for a smaller hotel...



Would be amazing if the Collective would purchase the property and make a green zone for the public to enjoy.

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## MTBH

I'll be honest that this article and - more to the point- the actual reality of it makes me sad. But I'll also be honest that the "Bucket" (and its billionaires) has for years been such a turn off for me. I only was on island a couple of times during the Bucket but watching a bunch of corporate owned mega yachts sail around the island just seemed so far from the St. Barts I once loved (and why I loved it). The vibe was very much not my scene (YMMV). I also remember Franck from Wall House opining how "great" the Bucket and the wealthy Russians were for St. Barths. That probably was an ominous sign of where things were going. But certainly not my place to pull up drawbridges but I cannot pretend that the island is the same place I feel in love with many years ago.

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## shihadehs

After almost 40 years of coming to the island no big money will spoil our stay... we know where to go and enjoy

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## KevinS

> After almost 40 years of coming to the island no big money will spoil our stay... we know where to go and enjoy




+1

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## Cwater

> After almost 40 years of coming to the island no big money will spoil our stay... we know where to go and enjoy



+ 1 as well.  What attracted Cheryl and & I to our favorite place has not changed.  Once we step onto the tarmac the cares of the world fade away.  We know that for the next 2 weeks what matters is not as important as what matters.

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## Eve

+3

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## amyb

> + 1 as well.  What attracted Cheryl and & I to our favorite place has not changed.  Once we step onto the tarmac the cares of the world fade away.  We know that for the next 2 weeks what matters is not as important as what matters.



So well put…Phil has always had instant peace after the wheels touch down and before he deplanes.

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## cassidain

> Would be amazing if the Collective would purchase the property and make a green zone for the public to enjoy.



what do you imagine it would cost to purchase the property and develop it into a « green space » ?

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## le_reve

> After almost 40 years of coming to the island no big money will spoil our stay... we know where to go and enjoy



+1 Still my happy place.  I don't see that changing any time soon.

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## amyb

We can agree-no other place like St Barths...we are the luckiest bunch of visitors in the world

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## Cwater

> We can agree-no other place like St Barths...we are the luckiest bunch of visitors in the world



amen

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## Bart -my real name-

From the article:

The court ruled that a company headed by the American hotelier Denise Dupré must stop construction of her second luxury hotel on the island, *and refill a football field-size hole,* intended for an underground parking garage, on a popular but environmentally precarious beach.

The ruling might signal a turning point in the hyper-development of this tropical Arcadia for the rich. The deconstruction alone will cost the developer what some parties *involved estimate to be at least 50 million euros (about $57 million).* The company won’t divulge the actual cost of the proposed project.

Are they filling the hole with gold?!?!

Did the Trump organization provide this estimate for the cost!?!?!?

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## andynap

> From the article:
> 
> The court ruled that a company headed by the American hotelier Denise Dupré must stop construction of her second luxury hotel on the island, *and refill a football field-size hole,* intended for an underground parking garage, on a popular but environmentally precarious beach.
> 
> The ruling might signal a turning point in the hyper-development of this tropical Arcadia for the rich. The deconstruction alone will cost the developer what some parties *involved estimate to be at least 50 million euros (about $57 million).* The company wont divulge the actual cost of the proposed project.
> 
> Are they filling the hole with gold?!?!
> 
> Did the Trump organization provide this estimate for the cost!?!?!?



The problem is that the sand/dirt removed from the hole is gone. They will have to scavenger hunt to fill it with heavy equipment used around the island. $57 million is a little high tho.
 But filling it way harder here than digging it out.

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## cassidain

> Did the Trump organization provide this estimate for the cost!?!?!?



I think you’d be happier down in EE.

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## marybeth

I was sad to read this as others were. And I also feel the island is still our happy place, but also worry about getting "priced out," particularly as we near retirement. Would love to plan longer stays but wonder if we'll be able to afford that.....

On the other hand, this was fun:

"One of the English-language island online forums has a chat titled “Death to Domino’s Pizza” in reference to the hotel project."

St Barth Online has truly arrived, getting quoted in the NYT.   :cool:

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## Max1030

> what do you imagine it would cost to purchase the property and develop it into a « green space » ?



It could be an amazing attraction for all, rich and not so rich to enjoy. 
I am not a billionaire and could never imagine what piece of land like this costs, but I do know that articles like this NYT's will continue, as more and more people become disappointed with current status of the island. 

The construction and noise is nonstop and has been ridiculous even before Irma, but especially after. I can see non SBHaholics seeking other venues to spend their money for more peaceful holidays.

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## cassidain

> It could be an amazing attraction for all, rich and not so rich to enjoy.



may be. but the director of the tourism committee has been clear that it's the _haut de gamme_ visitor they want. 

«Lîle est tellement petite quil est impossible de faire du tourisme de masse. Nous avons donc misé sur le haut de gamme, nous ne cherchons pas à développer le quantitatif», assume Nils Dufau ...

«La clientèle américaine, très haut de gamme, aime le côté jet set mais aussi le côté décontracté, les pieds dans le sable. Ici, ils ne viennent pas chercher lesprit resort. Cest un esprit bohème chic et frais, quon ne retrouve pas ailleurs dans la région» (Jocelyne Sibuet)

I formerly enjoyed wines from Madame Leroy, Raveneau, et al. Way too many billionaires in the world now.

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## pintsizepilot

Okay, there is so much to unpack in that article. With a trip just around the corner, however, I am quite disturbed to learn about the polluted waters of Grand Cul de Sac (snorkeling to see turtles). Can anyone comment on this? Any improvements there?

Thanks!  - Tara

"Ms. Dupré’s group had already developed another hotel that it operates — the austere, five-star Le Barthélemy Hotel & Spa, on a beach called Grand Cul de Sac, which has had its own environmental issues. Le Barthélemy received two notices, in 2019 and 2021, from the government about chemical and biological waste leaking into the water.
Government inspectors have recorded E. coli levels 800 percent higher than the legal limit. “I kite surf at the lagoon almost everyday, and my worst fear is not getting in an accident but falling into the polluted lagoon,” said Patrick Ubbeda, a local restaurant owner."

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## cassidain

> Okay, there is so much to unpack in that article. With a trip just around the corner, however, I am quite disturbed to learn about the polluted waters of Grand Cul de Sac (snorkeling to see turtles). Can anyone comment on this ?



huh?

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## JEK

You may find a link to all water testing on the island here: https://www.sbhonline.com/forums/sho...on-all-beaches

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## Max1030

> may be. but the director of the tourism committee has been clear that it's the _haut de gamme_ visitor they want. 
> 
> « Cest un esprit bohème chic et frais, quon ne retrouve pas ailleurs dans la région» (Jocelyne Sibuet)



I understand that the jet set spending a few weeks a year afford the whole island to function, but at what cost to us lovers and those living on island. 

Also mentions "esprit bohème chic" This beach project like the one on Grande Cul de sac are definitely not in the bohemian spirit

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## cassidain

I think it's not the pure bohemian spirit they're trying to capture but rather the hyphenated variety.

Gyp-Set. Boho-Chic. Etc

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## JEK

> I was sad to read this as others were. And I also feel the island is still our happy place, but also worry about getting "priced out," particularly as we near retirement. Would love to plan longer stays but wonder if we'll be able to afford that.....
> 
> On the other hand, this was fun:
> 
> "One of the English-language island online forums has a chat titled “Death to Domino’s Pizza” in reference to the hotel project."
> 
> St Barth Online has truly arrived, getting quoted in the NYT.



On background only

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## 17.9000° N, 62.8333° W

I guess the adage...Be Careful What You Wish For...might apply. The island is perpetually in expansion mode to satisfy what are the perceived needs of its visitors. Fancier this and that, the newest and best of this or that, one-upmanship on a grand level. I remember what a surprise it was when Isle de France was able to open a beach restaurant, it caused a bit of a stir, would be a cake walk today..I think. There just seems to be a never enough mentality, you have to have something new, shiny and glittery to excite the returning gusts. That villa that's being built in Flamands that was reported on here is obscene and a reminder that anything goes. We will be back but it's not such a good feeling when you find yourself reminiscing about what it was like in the past.

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## Jim Kelly-Evans

> Okay, there is so much to unpack in that article. With a trip just around the corner, however, I am quite disturbed to learn about the polluted waters of Grand Cul de Sac (snorkeling to see turtles). Can anyone comment on this? Any improvements



I enjoyed a swim there the other day. Lots of people were enjoying various watersports activities in the lagoon when we were there.

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## pintsizepilot

Thank you all for the Grand Cul de Sac water updates. :)

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## JEK

https://stbarthessentiel.fr/2022/03/...imes-en-parle/

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## Canuck

[QUOTE=marybeth;1060019]I was sad to read this as others were. And I also feel the island is still our happy place, but also worry about getting "priced out," particularly as we near retirement. Would love to plan longer stays but wonder if we'll be able to afford that.....

On the other hand, this was fun:

We share your worry. We discovered St Barts after retiring about 11 years ago and have vacationed in no other Caribbean island since. We are not only concerned about being priced out, as you say, but also about the over development possibilities which then brings crowds, traffic and of course environmental problems. It doesnt bother us that there are billionaires and the like on the Island because we have our routines and favorite places that still put us in a happy place. The ultra rich have never been an issue for us because most of them seem to only want to relax as well (just with a bit more opulence). It is overcrowding and pollution and crime that will end this paradise for us. All of those things come with overdevelopment...please SBH dont let that happen!!

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## JEK

Ellen gets the final word in The Weekly

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## cassidain

> Ellen gets the final word



with respect, i always enjoy ellens input, but I suspect it may not be the final word.

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## JEK

As long as ppl keep posting on this thread it will not.

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## cassidain

Yeah. People.

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## debd

Does anyone have the courage it would
take to yell stop at the top of their lungs.
and do what it takes to really make a dif-
terence? How many hotel rooms are too
many? How many more rental villas do
we need? What do we want St Barth to
look like in 5, 10, or 15 years?


The next territorial president has a lot to
confront. More of the same or something
different? Only time will tell, but let's lis-
ten carefully and ask the right questions
as their campaigns unfold until the first
round of elections on March 20.


Ellen Lampert-Gréaux

-

Bravo.

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## shihadehs

Very well said Ellen!!!!!

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## le_reve

> “Does anyone have the courage it would
> take to yell stop at the top of their lungs.
> and do what it takes to really make a dif-
> terence? How many hotel rooms are too
> many? How many more rental villas do
> we need? What do we want St Barth to
> look like in 5, 10, or 15 years?
> 
> 
> ...




+1000000

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## cassidain

which candidate for the presidency of the island said this:

"Compte tenu de la part croissante de main d’œuvre dans l’hôtellerie, nous n’autoriserons plus de nouvelle construction d’hôtel, faute de pouvoir loger davantage de saisonniers. Il nous semble aussi impératif de limiter le nombre de villas de location touristique."

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## debd

[QUOTE=cassidain;1060510]

"Compte tenu de la part croissante de main duvre dans lhôtellerie, nous nautoriserons plus de nouvelle construction dhôtel, faute de pouvoir loger davantage de saisonniers. Il nous semble aussi impératif de limiter le nombre de villas de location touristique."[/QUOTE


Translation:

Given the growing share of labor in the hotel industry, we will no longer authorize new hotel construction, for lack of being able to accommodate more seasonal workers. It also seems imperative to us to limit the number of tourist rental villas.

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## cassidain

I think some jurisdictions brake runaway real estate values (which impinge on the affordability of housing for locals and essential service providers) by restricting the conditions under which properties can be used for short term rentals. A possible approach for Saint-Barth.

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## cassidain

Btw, quote from Romaric Magras.

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## cassidain

Was reading candidate positions in Le Journal. Mr Magras informed that, though the real cost of electricity on sbh is very high, the price charged is standardized by EDF, so they pay same as other French do.

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## cassidain

« _Même si nous étions tous les deux [Lédée/Bernier]opposés à ce projet [Hôtel L'Étoile], nous allons devoir réfléchir à ce qui est le mieux pour la Collectivité_ », a déclaré le président Xavier Lédée. De fait, rien nindique que, par la suite, la SAS Saint-Jean Beach Real Estate Invest ne va pas se retourner judiciairement contre la Collectivité.* Ce qui pourrait entraîner, en cas de décision favorable à la société investisseuse, de lourdes pénalités financières à lencontre de la Collectivité.* Une affaire à suivre, par conséquent, de très près. Le Journal 7 April 22

be careful what you wish for . . .

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## Blooming Magnolia

Thank you Ellen for saying what many of us ate afraid of "Paradise Lost"

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## Leon

> « _Même si nous étions tous les deux [Lédée/Bernier]opposés à ce projet [Hôtel L'Étoile], nous allons devoir réfléchir à ce qui est le mieux pour la Collectivité_ », a déclaré le président Xavier Lédée. De fait, rien n’indique que, par la suite, la SAS Saint-Jean Beach Real Estate Invest ne va pas se retourner judiciairement contre la Collectivité.* Ce qui pourrait entraîner, en cas de décision favorable à la société investisseuse, de lourdes pénalités financières à l’encontre de la Collectivité.* Une affaire à suivre, par conséquent, de très près. Le Journal 7 April 22
> 
> be careful what you wish for . . .



[Lédée/Bernier] opposed to this project [Hôtel L'Étoile], we are going to have to think about what is best for the Community”, declared the president Xavier Lédée. In fact, there is nothing to indicate that, subsequently, SAS Saint-Jean Beach Real Estate Invest will not take legal action against the Collectivity. This could lead, in the event of a decision favorable to the investing company, to heavy financial penalties against the Collectivity. A case to follow, therefore, very closely. The Diary 7 April 22

I am not sure why will they litigate and even less will win against the Collectivity. It was the court decision to annul the permit, was it?

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## cassidain

I believe the developers are appealing to a higher court. The current administration seems to have some apprehension that, if the developers were to prevail in the higher court, the COM could face substantial financial liability. 
Others more well informed please chime in.

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## Leon

> I believe the developers are appealing to a higher court. The current administration seems to have some apprehension that, if the developers were to prevail in the higher court, the COM could face substantial financial liability. 
> Others more well informed please chime in.



I do not have any knowledge of French courts relating to each other but what this article projects (maybe intentionally) is the weakness of the resolve of new administration.

Of course, I am looking at the writing thru the lens trained by our highly partisan press.

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## andynap

> I do not have any knowledge of French courts relating to each other but what this article projects (maybe intentionally) is the weakness of the resolve of new administration.
> 
> Of course, I am looking at the writing thru the lens trained by our highly partisan press.



The legal process as I understand it was this:
The prior  administration granted the original permit to build LEtoile. After the building commenced certain organizations and individuals sued and won in the lower court. LEtoile appealed and the administration joined in. Whether it had to legally or to save face I cant say but the current administration is in a bind. It doesnt want to continue to support the original permit but can it withdraw its appeal or even support the other side without any liability? 
That I cant answer but if it stays neutral I cant  imagine any monetary exposure. And I cant see any liability for granting the original permit.

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## cassidain

à suivre . . .

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## Leon

> The legal process as I understand it was this:
> The prior  administration granted the original permit to build L’Etoile. After the building commenced certain organizations and individuals sued and won in the lower court. L’Etoile appealed and the administration joined in. Whether it had to legally or to save face I can’t say but the current administration is in a bind. It doesn’t want to continue to support the original permit but can it withdraw its appeal or even support the other side without any liability? 
> That I can’t answer but if it stays neutral I can’t  imagine any monetary exposure. And I can’t see any liability for granting the original permit.



+1

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## cassidain

Opération bouchage
sur le chantier de lEtoile


they're fixing (filling) a hole where the rain gets in  :cool:

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## cec1

I'm surprised that the owner would be made to fill the hole while the matter is on appeal.

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## JEK

> I'm surprised that the owner would be made to fill the hole while the matter is on appeal.



Might be a health and safety hazard.

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## cec1

> Might be a health and safety hazard.



Could be . . . I don't know French law on this issue.

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## cassidain

I think article mentioned the risks incurred having a huge hole in the ground with hurricane season here. Déluge and surf surge.

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## le_reve

> Opération bouchage
> sur le chantier de l’Etoile
> Attachment 62481
> 
> they're fixing (filling) a hole where the rain gets in




And stops my mind from wandering
Where it will go......

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## cassidain

i was wondering if anyone would notice

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## elgreaux

> i was wondering if anyone would notice



"See the people standing there who disagree and never win... "

wonder who will win in this case...the jury is still out.

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## cassidain

> wonder who will win in this case...the jury is still out.



will be interesting to see if COM gets stuck with tab for this interruption. 
apparently its within the realm of possibilities.

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## cec1

I’ll take odds on who will “win.”

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## elgreaux

> I’ll take odds on who will “win.”



I just wish the island had never issued a permit for such an oversized project on that site. A hotel with the feeling of the old Emeraude Plage with the addition of a small restaurant and small spa seems more appropriate.... great beachfront locale, a luxury boutique hotel could have been nice!

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## cassidain

> I just wish the island had never issued a permit for such an oversized project on that site.



right. but once done, to wage an internecine war. will this prove to have been a costly manuvre? on verra . . .

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## andynap

> I just wish the island had never issued a permit for such an oversized project on that site. A hotel with the feeling of the old Emeraude Plage with the addition of a small restaurant and small spa seems more appropriate.... great beachfront locale, a luxury boutique hotel could have been nice!



I think it was the underground parking garage that did it in more than anything.

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## elgreaux

> I think it was the underground parking garage that did it in more than anything.



seems like they have dug themselves into a hole  :Wink-slap:

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## hydraaa

First came to SB in 1989 on a day trip from St. Maarten with my new bride on our honeymoon....day trip...returned 1990 for first official trip and stayed at Guanahani...1st night dinner...Marigot Beach Club...returned almost every year for 25 years...early days...magical...

Now...simply nice...but nicer than most other places I've been...everything is ridiculously expensive but if you know where to go...simply expensive...a sign of the times where the Central Banks have inflated everything and a financial collapse is on the way...

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## Bullneck

Anyone know what this is supposed to be?

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## JEK

Yep!
https://www.sbhonline.com/forums/sho...Festive-Season

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## amyb

Maybe UNICEF  can repurpose it as a school house somewhere OR a clinic.

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## JEK

> Maybe UNICEF  can repurpose it as a school house somewhere OR a clinic.



I'm thinking it is all rented from an events company an will just move on to the next bash.

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## amyb

You are probably right, John.

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## elgreaux

> You are probably right, John.



It's a temporary tensile structure, would never be up to code for a house or a school, only running on generators, etc.....

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## Bullneck

> Yep!
> https://www.sbhonline.com/forums/sho...Festive-Season



Thanks!

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