# The SBHonline Community Daily > Restaurants Wine & Food Off The Island >  >  The Shrimp Story Contines

## andynap

I don't like that last bullet point


*As If Slavery Werent Enough, 6 Other Reasons to Avoid Shrimp*                         By Tom Philpott
 | Wed Jan. 6, 2016 6:00 AM EST


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__Delicious treat, or the devil's crustacean?   Ramona Heim/Shutterstock
Ah, shrimp. Americans can't get enough of it: Per capita consumption has doubled since the early '80s, and we now eat on average about four pounds per year of the briny crustacean. Not even tuna and salmon (about 2.3 pounds each) outshine the shrimp on the US dinner table.
But the all-you-can-eat specials and fish counter fire sales ride on a massive shrimp-farming boom in the developing world, mainly in South Asia. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization, global farmed shrimp production leapt from 154,00 metric tons in 2000 to 3.3 million metric tons in 2013. Imports now account for 90 percent of the shrimp we eat.
Yet for all its abundance, the diminutive shellfish carries some heavy baggage you might want to consider before consuming your next shrimp cocktail. Since its inception, the farmed-shrimp industry has been plagued by reports of unsavory working conditions and ecological destruction. Last month's Associated Press blockbuster on slavery in Thai shrimp-processing factories is only the latest chapter. Here are six more problems with America's favorite seafood:

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 Awful conditions on Thailand's shrimp farms are nothing new. Staffed largely by migrant workers from Cambodia, Laos, and Burma, Thailand's shrimp farms, the source of 11.7 percent of US imported shrimp, have a labor rap sheet as long as the line at an all-you-can-eat buffet. In 2012, the Washington Post found that "overseas demand for shrimp products in greater volume has fueled a culture of exploitation in the Thai industry," including teenagers working "16-hour shifts, seven days a week, for less than $3 a day." A 2013 investigation by international labor groups found a variety of abuses on facilities owned by a major supplier to the US market, including including illegal use of underage workers and illegal wages cuts. And a 2008 report from the UK labor rights group The Solidarity Centre found child labor, debt bondage, and wage theft on both Thai and Bangladeshi shrimp farms. 
 Farmed shrimp has a massive carbon footprint. Mangrove forests are engines of biodiversity along tropical shorelinesthe very site of the shrimp boom. A 2012 UN report found that one-fifth of the globe's mangroves have been destroyed since 1980, and "many remaining mangrove forests are considered degraded." As much as 38 percent of that loss can be attributed to the spread of shrimp farming, the report found. And since healthy mangrove forests sponge up huge amounts of carbon, killing them contributes significantly to climate change. The Oregon State University ecologist and mangrove expert J. Boone Kauffman estimates farmed shrimp has 10 times the carbon footprint of beef raised in cleared rainforest land.

 Farmed shrimp often has traces of antibiotics and antibiotic-resistant bacteriaand the FDA barely tests it as it comes in. Shrimp farms rely on antibiotics to speed up growth and control disease. For a 2015 investigation, Consumer Reports bought shrimp from retailers across the country and tested them for chemical and bacterial residues. Of 205 imported raw, farmed shrimp samples, 11 tested positive for one or more antibiotics, and 6 turned up with an antibiotic-resistant staph bug called MRSA. For a 2012 study, FDA scientists found that roughly 10 percent of samples tested showed resistance to no fewer than eight different antibiotics. The researchers concluded that "imported shrimp is a reservoir for multidrug-resistant Klebsiella," which can trigger urinary tract infections and pneumonia. Yet the FDA's inspection of incoming farmed shrimp is so weak and "ineffectively implemented" that the General Accounting Office gave it this harsh assessment in 2011.

 Eating it doesn't help with overfishing. Shrimp farms not only harm wild fish stocks by destroying mangroves, which are essentially the oceans' nurseries in tropical areas; they also contribute to overfishing. That's because most shrimp species are carnivorous, and it takes about 1.3 pounds of wild fishin the form of processed fishmealto produce a pound of edible farmed shrimp.

 Cheap farmed shrimp is helping kill the wild US shrimp fishery. "A surge of imported shrimp from Indonesia, Ecuador, and India has sent [US] prices plunging by more than a third in the past year," BloombergBusiness reported in September. That's good news for shrimp fans, but rotten news for shrimpers in US coastal waters. "If something doesn't change and prices don't rise, fishermen cannot continue to work for these prices," the president of the Louisiana Shrimp Association told Bloomberg. Battered not only by cheap foreign competition but also by recent cataclysmic hurricanes and oil spills, the Gulf shrimp industrythe source of the most US-caught wild shrimpis in crisis. The annual harvest is down 35 percent from five years ago, and the "number of permits for shrimping boats is down 24 percent since 2007," Bloomberg reports.

 Then there's wild shrimp's bycatch problemand also mislabeling. In 2014, Oceana named the Gulf of Mexico shrimp fishery one of the nine "dirtiest" in the United States in terms of bycatch. Commercial shrimp boats use "nets as wide as a football fields" and inadvertently "catch millions of pounds of sharks and other reef fish such as snappers and groupers" and "injure tens of thousands of sea turtles." And while eating wild shrimp means fewer antibiotic residues and a lower carbon footprint than farmed fish, the stuff marketed as "wild" is often falsely labeled farmed product, according to another 2014 Oceana study.
All of which makes me hungry for oysters and sardines.

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## GMP62

Re: that last bullet point:  I felt I was doing the right thing by purchasing the "wild caught gulf shrimp" - and still do, choosing only to buy US caught fish and shellfish. However, reading about all the other species being 'caught up' in the Gulf process, it puts me off a bit.  We had discussed this in a previous thread not too long ago also.

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## stbartshopper

Unfortunately, shrimp, when you are out at a restaurant shrimp- who knows how it really has been raised and harvested?

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## MIke R

And yet....non wild shrimp dishes  continue to show up on resto meal reports in here  ......


Every trawler in very ocean is going to have by catch ...there is absolutely no way around that....as long as they send the by catch to market and the by catch is not an endangered species I  don't see an issue with that ...

Mislabeling  and misourcing is still a problem ...... Personally I buy direct from Gulf Shrimp  shippers in Louisiana  and I cannot imagine them doing a bait and switch.....


I have spent a lot of time working in the Gulf  and never saw "nets as wide as football fields out there".....and the guys I know who still work down there, say boat and gear have actually gotten smaller in scope and size since the market is under such  pressure from imported farmed product 


Gulf of Mexico shrimp nets HAVE to have turtle escape gear in their nets


*Turtle Excluder Devices*


*Turtle escaping from net equipped with a TED*
Credit: NOAA


*Loggerhead Turtle escaping from net equipped with a TED*
Video (35 sec)


*Loggerhead Turtle* escaping a net equipped with a TED
Credit: NOAAOne of the major threats to sea turtles in the marine environment is bycatch, injury, and mortality during fishing operations. 
To address interactions between sea turtles and trawl fishing gear, NOAA Fisheries scientists worked with the commercial shrimp trawl industry to develop turtle excluder devices, or TEDs.

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## andynap

As to turtle excluder devices you should read this first 
http://www.nola.com/environment/inde...ll_allowi.html

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## MIke R

Interesting....

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## MIke R

Tome to look for a Texas shrimp shipper I guess......

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## KevinS

Re-read the article.  Previously, LA prohibited their state Wildlife and Fisheries agents from enforcing the Federal TED (Turtle-Excluder Device) law.  That was a problem for me.  The LA law has now been repealed, effective 8/1/2015.

Here's a link to an article on Seafood Watch removing LA shrimp from the "Avoid" list as a result of the change.

http://www.nola.com/environment/inde...l#incart_river

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## MIke R

Oh cool....I just glanced at it while multi-tasking

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## Bart -my real name-

> And yet....non wild shrimp dishes  continue to show up on resto meal reports in here  ......
> .



Mike - what do you mean by that?  Are all the shrimp served in SHB farmed in a sewer in Thailand?  Do they not (or can they not) buy US shrimp?

And just for a refresher, is it only US, wild caught shrimp that we should be buying?  What about Canada (don't even know if they have shrimp!) or other "clean" countries?  (I'm not sure who they are or what I even mean by "clean", but I remember being in a store recently and saw shrimp from some country (possibly Canada), and I thought to myself, _they_ should probably be on par with the US in terms of environmental protections and labor laws)

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## andynap

I haven't seen Canadian shrimp in the stores yet but I understand they are fine. Otherwise, I'm eating Wild Caught Gulf Shrimp only at home. Gulf shrimp costs almost 2x the imported shrimp so I don't trust any restaurant to offer the more expensive so I don't eat shrimp out.

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## MIke R

> Mike - what do you mean by that?  Are all the shrimp served in SHB farmed in a sewer in Thailand?  Do they not (or can they not) buy US shrimp?
> 
> And just for a refresher, is it only US, wild caught shrimp that we should be buying?  What about Canada (don't even know if they have shrimp!) or other "clean" countries?  (I'm not sure who they are or what I even mean by "clean", but I remember being in a store recently and saw shrimp from some country (possibly Canada), and I thought to myself, _they_ should probably be on par with the US in terms of environmental protections and labor laws)




What I mean is unless it is otherwise indicated on the menu r by the chef , all resto shrimp, including those served in the land of puppy dogs and unicorns in the Caribbean, are more than likely Asian farmed shrimp...so in consuming that and presenting it in your food report you are in essence supporting slave labor, and filthy dirty farmed products where carcinogenic banned products are used  to keep them alive in the cesspools they are raised ....that's what I mean......

any   Wild  shrimp, be it here, Canada.....South America ...is a better option...not a perfect option but a much better option.....cold water shrimp up here and in Canada to me are pretty tasteless ......I got some very nice tasty  South Carolina shrimp over Christmas

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## Bart -my real name-

Thanks!

Is there such a thing as wild caught shrimp from Thailand/India/Cambodia, etc?  Do they do that over there?  (and yeah, I fully understand that just because the label says "wild caught" doesn't make it so)

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## andynap

> Thanks!
> 
>  (and yeah, I fully understand that just because the label says "wild caught" doesn't make it so)



Why do you say that? Any examples?? I see Gulf Wild Caught and I see Farmed. What reason do I have not to believe the label.

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## MIke R

> Thanks!
> 
> Is there such a thing as wild caught shrimp from Thailand/India/Cambodia, etc?  Do they do that over there?  (and yeah, I fully understand that just because the label says "wild caught" doesn't make it so)




Yes there is and it has been recently exposed as a huge slave and child slave  labor industry where boats go out for extended periods of time with crew  against their will, and with out appropriate food and shelter
For crew or adequate refrigeration for their product

bon appetit......

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## andynap

> Yes there is is and it has been recently exposed as a huge slave and child slave  labor industry where boats go out for extended periods of time with crew  against their will, and with out appropriate food and shelter
> or crew or refrigeration for their product
> 
> bon appetit......



Have you read my first post?? TWIS

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## MIke R

Reiterating it..... :cool:

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## Reed

> What I mean is unless it is otherwise indicated on the menu r by the chef , all resto shrimp, including those served in the land of puppy dogs and unicorns in the Caribbean, are more than likely Asian farmed shrimp...so in consuming that and presenting it in your food report you are in essence supporting slave labor, and filthy dirty farmed products where carcinogenic banned products are used  to keep them alive in the cesspools they are raised ....that's what I mean......
> 
> any   Wild  shrimp, be it here, Canada.....South America ...is a better option...not a perfect option but a much better option.....cold water shrimp up here and in Canada to me are pretty tasteless ......I got some very nice tasty  South Carolina shrimp over Christmas




As my favorite fish dude at 167 on Nantucket once told me (we don't trade as he only does retail) "the shrimp is simply the vehicle for the cocktail sauce".  After thinking that comment over a bit I am remiss to think about a single shrimp without sauce, garlic or whatever, actually having much taste. kr

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## andynap

If anyone doesn't know about the slave labor in Asian shrimp they have been living in a cave.  :tongue:   There have been numerous articles, exposes, TV shows, etc.

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## andynap

> As my favorite fish dude at 167 on Nantucket once told me (we don't trade as he only does retail) "the shrimp is simply the vehicle for the cocktail sauce".  After thinking that comment over a bit I am remiss to think about a single shrimp without sauce, garlic or whatever, actually having much taste. kr



No question and that's why I have numerous recipes for shrimp-

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## amyb

At home, the fish store sells shrimp from Ecuador.

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## andynap

> At home, the fish store sells shrimp from Ecuador.



Seafoodwatch gives Ecuadoran shrimp  a reasonable alternative. http://www.seafoodwatch.org/-/m/sfw/...rimpreport.pdf

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## MIke R

I agree....even good  fresh shrimp needs "help"

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## MIke R

One of the funnier sbh meal reports was from a poster  a few years ago who complained about a few flies  at Jojo burger and then wrote a glowing report about a cesspool shrimp dish :uncomfortableness:

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## Bart -my real name-

> Why do you say that? Any examples?? I see Gulf Wild Caught and I see Farmed. What reason do I have not to believe the label.



I'm talking about bogus labels.  Bootleg iPhone 6s were on the market days after the real thing (maybe even before).  A phone is a lot harder to counterfeit than an label on a shipment of shrimp.   And how hard is it to write, "wild caught" on the sign in the display case at the market?  Answer:  Not very.    That's what I was talking about.

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## andynap

I'm talking about the label on the shrimp package. That's what I'm  talking about. I don't buy loose shrimp from the store.

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## Bart -my real name-

> If anyone doesn't know about the slave labor in Asian shrimp they have been living in a cave.   There have been numerous articles, exposes, TV shows, etc.



That's crazy.  (Not sure if you're acknowledging that with the smiley face or not).

People on this site are _very_ tuned into certain things that most of the rest of the planet is not.  

This reminds me of when the chickengunya issue first broke and there were lots of comments along the lines of "if you're too stupid to know about, then you deserve to get it"  (I'm paraphrasing and making it harsher than what as actually said, but that was the basic message).  I ended up warning 3 different families on three different trips to the Caribbean about it and non of them had any idea.  (In fact, I gave them copies of your "mosquito 101" write up Andy)  These were all very intelligent, successful people who are generally well informed, but this was a niche issue.

I put the slave labor/nasty conditions/shrimp thing in the same boat (get it?).  It's certainty more of "universal" issue than traveling to the Caribbean is, but to know about it you have to be tuned in to certain things and have certain interests that go beyond every day shopping or eating out.  I'm very up on the DC restaurant scene and the food scene and farmers markets and specialty markets and the all the rest of it.  I read a lot of articles, blogs, sites, and watch a lot of tv on the subject (food, restaurants, health) and I don't recall ever reading/seeing anything about it other than here.  Until recently that is.  I just saw some tv show on it in the last month or so.  Not sure if it was HBO, 60 minutes, a Netflix documentary, but I did see something on it very recently, but that may have been the first time outside of this site that I've seen it.

Do really think that people who buy this stuff in grocery stores are aware that they're buying shrimp raised in a sewer by actual slave labor and often child slaves!??!!

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## andynap

My comment was meant for this site and the various articles posted here. Of course most people don't know about slave labor and/or trash shrimp. I think that's obvious.

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## Bart -my real name-

Ahhh..........apologies.  I flunked emoji class!

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## MIke R

> That's crazy.  (Not sure if you're acknowledging that with the smiley face or not).
> 
> People on this site are _very_ tuned into certain things that most of the rest of the planet is not.  
> 
> 
> 
> Do really think that people who buy this stuff in grocery stores are aware that they're buying shrimp raised in a sewer by actual slave labor and often child slaves!??!!




To your first statement....Would this be the same people who mush and gush over frozen  cryovaced  to minus 20 degrees scallops?....and Asian shrimp?....and frozen fish from thousands of miles away drowning in butter to compensate ?....are these the people you are referring to?...just looking for clarification 

and to the grocery store comment....have you LOOKED at the crap in most people's carts at the check out lines?....the sugary, fat ladened, preservative packed crap that is in their carts?...given that do you think they 
know?...or care?

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## Bart -my real name-

Come on Mike.  Most of us _only_ know what "previously frozen" seafood tastes like.  We don't own fishing boats, and lobster pots or live on boats.  Our frame of reference is much different than yours.  If the food still tastes great and is gush worthy, then why not gush?  

My brother is spending the next three months skiing (every kind of skiing!) and ice climbing in the Canadian Rockies.  Should I ring him up to to rain on your parade every time you post a photo of those puny NH mountains? "Mountains?!?  You call those mountains??"  


And to your second point, there's a tiny bit of a difference between buying junk food and buying shrimp raised in human excrement, by human child slaves.  I love Doritos, and while I don't often eat them, if I found out they were made in the same conditions that Asian shrimp are raised, I'd never even think about buying them ever again.  I'd like to think most of the junk food eaters out there would do the same.

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## MIke R

Weak arguments .....You don't have to own fishing boats and lobster pots to have a high enough "foodie" standard to recognize that locally caught and prepared seafood is truly a superior tasting meal over anything  old,frozen, imported and thawed .....I know a lot of people who don't know how to even use a fishing rod but yet know what good seafood tastes like  :cool: ....people who don't own  cattle ranches still know what a great steak tastes like 

and having spent 8 years out west and skied avalanche chutes ....massive off piste bowls .....and hell skied.....etc, I am well aware of  just what pimples we have here and would sell my soul  to go back if I could......but I can't ...at least not now...but post away...I would love to see his adventures and wouldn't feel the slightest bit parade rained on ....I'm not wired that way snd beside.....I had my turn 

and you are giving the fattest and most diabetic country IN THE WORLD  waaaaaaaaayyyyy  too  much credit  for understanding  the cause and effect of what they consume ...as Bill Parcells said..you are what your record says you are

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## Bart -my real name-

> Weak arguments .....You don't have to own fishing boats and lobster pots to have a high enough "foodie" standard *to recognize that locally caught and prepared seafood is truly a superior tasting meal over anything  old,frozen, imported and thawed* .....I know a lot of people who don't know how to even use a fishing rod but yet know what good seafood tastes like ....people who don't own  cattle ranches still know what a great steak tastes like 
> 
> 
> and you are giving the fattest and most diabetic country IN THE WORLD  waaaaaaaaayyyyy * too  much credit  for understanding  the cause and effect of what they consume* ...as Bill Parcells said..you are what your record says you are



First bolded line:  Of course fresh, local and wild is the best, but my point was, most people don't have that luxury.  Don't change the argument to make your point, which was, "you people who think you're enjoying seafood on SBH are just a bunch of suckers because it was previously frozen".  For a lot of people, when we go to our local supermarket and the only thing offered is "previously frozen" so we buy it and enjoy it.  And if we get the same stuff in a restaurant, we enjoy that too.  In today's world, there are probably some never-been-frozen fish at supermarkets, but what about 5, 10, 20 years ago?  Doubtful.  The vast majority of seafood easily available to far inland people is previously frozen, and GASP!, people eat it an enjoy it.  If you served them an identical meal comparing fresh vs. frozen, I have no doubt the fresh would taste better, but for most people fresh is/was not an option.  

Second bolded line:  You're changing the argument again.  You're talking about junk food.  I'm talking about knowingly buying shrimp raised by slaves in sewer water.  Do you think if you stood next to the shrimp case in the supermarket and showed photos/videos of Asian shrimp conditions that people would still buy it?  I don't.   Again, before reading about it on this site (thank you for that!), I happily bought and ate whatever shrimp was available, but I didn't know any better.  Now I do so I don't buy that stuff any more.

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## MIke R

I do like your idea of showing photos and video by the seafood counter !....unfortunately I am so close to being banned from my local Hannefords grocery store because I give the seafood manager so much sh&t whenever I walk by the counter for the crap he buys and peddles, and have been asked numerous times to please stop harassing the manager, so if I brought photos, I would probably get arrested....LOL

and again I get what you re saying about not everyone having available fresh product but you exaggerate the issue ...we have about 5000 miles of coastline in our country which is also where most of the pouilation lives,  so spare me the poor people who cannot  get fresh product speech..... Truth is, most can

and how about the individual who DOES  have a choice and chooses the Patagonian Tooth Fish ( wisely renamed Chilean Sea Bass despite the fact that it is neither from Chili OR a sea bass )   or Turbot, which is a week old and thousands of miles removed  from its sourcing, over a fish which was locally sourced that day????

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## andynap

Quote:"  If you served them an identical meal comparing fresh vs. frozen, I have no doubt the fresh would taste better, but for most people fresh is/was not an option."

Actually there was a poll, posted here a while back, that had Costco and Trader Joe's frozen salmon better tasting than fresh salmon. Mike, I believe threw up at the results.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...ec8_story.html

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## MIke R

yeah but at least  I threw up fresh fish.....LOL.. :Devil Laughing:

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## MIke R

and speaking of fresh fish..my buddy has been catching a LOT of black sea bass this week ...this particular fish is making a remarkable recovery and its local to mid Atlantic states...this is a picture of part of his catch today ( he brought in 200 pounds ) and this is what they look like so you don't get fooled by your local market....delicious fish...one of the best

11140011_630130947124903_249665385481721783_n.jpg

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## andynap

I love Black Sea Bass. I haven't seen it here for a long time. I'll look for it.

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## Bart -my real name-

> I do like your idea of showing photos and video by the seafood counter !....unfortunately I am so close to being banned from my local Hannefords grocery store because I give the seafood manager so much sh&t whenever I walk by the counter for the crap he buys and peddles, and have been asked numerous times to please stop harassing the manager, so if I brought photos, I would probably get arrested....LOL



Hahahah!  Why am I not surprised?!!??!






> and again I get what you re saying about not everyone having available fresh product but you exaggerate the issue ...we have about 5000 miles of coastline in our country which is also where most of the pouilation lives,  so spare me the poor people who cannot  get fresh product speech..... Truth is, most can



I don't know about that.  I think things are getting better, but in my local Safeway, they usually only have a couple kinds of fish and it's usually previously frozen.  Now that we have a Wegmans close to us, there are more options but prior to that, I'm not sure where I could get good fresh fish.  I'd probably have to go to a high end joint in DC but for busy people with very little free time, it's just not practical to make a 2 hour round trip to shop for dinner.






> and how about the individual who DOES  have a choice and chooses the Patagonian Tooth Fish ( wisely renamed Chilean Sea Bass despite the fact that it is neither from Chili OR a sea bass )   or Turbot, which is a week old and thousands of miles removed  from its sourcing, over a fish which was locally sourced that day????



People who do that probably don't know any better.  I didn't and still don't in many respects, but where I have the knowledge I try to make the right decision.


And now, I'll enter into Mike R hall of shame..................

I ordered Turbot in SBH last month and loved it.  I didn't know it was a week old and frozen(?).  I don't think I'd ever hear of it before and it sounded good so I got it.  

Speaking of Turbot......a new semi-high end place opened in DC and they have "whole roasted Turbot" on the menu.  Is that going to be previously frozen or could it be fresh and just overnight shipped?

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## andynap

Quote:"And now, I'll enter into Mike R hall of shame"

Big deal.  :Devil Laughing:

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## MIke R

vast majority of turbot are farmed in Europe and China...sorry...very highly unlikely it isn't both farmed and previously frozen....

and you re right..things are getting better in how we handle product and ship it...and more demand of FRESH product will yield  a  better process as we move forward...but buyer beware...there are STILL no laws or regulations dictating refrigeration parameters of product ( other than shellfish ) while the product is still at sea...and ice is the first thing to be reduced when times are tough...not an issue this time of year in the North Atlantic but certainly is in summer time...we stil have a way to go to hold commercial guys accountable on product quality control.....thats why every piece of fish purchased should be given the eye test and nose test before you tell the seller to wrap it up

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## MIke R

its funny how a fish no one ever heard of  will suddenly become so 'cool" to order and eat in foo foo restaurants like the turbot has become lately even though there are far better options on the menu.....and we often learn the hard way its not so great a choice...like the Escolar which was so chic for awhile until we learned many people get severe cramps and stomach issues after eating it....in the 70s every foo foo restaurant HAD to have Tilefish and the tilefish literally paid for my college education because it was a fish you only caught a hundred miles offshore of New York and Jersey and Delaware in the winter..and hardly anyone wanted to do that sort of work that time of year  so the price went  through the roof...consequently I signed up for weekend trips as crew and we were bringing in 1 to 2 thousand pounds of tile fish every weekend at 3 to 4 bucks a pound to us throughout December January and February.....I was able to buy a seashore house at age 22 with tile fish money....until the restaurants found out tile fish had toxic levels of mercury in it...then it was bye bye tilefish off the menu and the price plummeted..

so I would suggest staying away from the latest and greatest fish you never heard of when its on the menu...until you learn more about it

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## amyb

I remember the TILAPIA craze.

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## MIke R

yep.......

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## andynap

Fresh Tilapia swimming in tanks in our chinatown restaurants

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## Peter NJ

Mike are you talking about your place in Highlands? You were 22 when you lived here? What years did you live here?

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## Bart -my real name-

> its funny how a fish no one ever heard of  will suddenly become so 'cool" to order and eat in foo foo restaurants like the turbot has become lately



I didn't know that was the case for Turbot.  I just ordered it because it was new to me and I like to try new things.  Had pigeon for the first time (I think) that same night.

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## MIke R

> Mike are you talking about your place in Highlands? You were 22 when you lived here? What years did you live here?



I moved out of JC and into those apartments on Shore Drive in Highlands with my future first wife when I was 19, while still in college, but commercially fishing whenever I could....moved to Point Pleasant and bought  a house three years after living in Highlands

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## BND

Mike offers "so I would suggest staying away from the latest and greatest fish you never heard of when its on the menu...until you learn more about it"  and Shakespeare said it long ago:  "Be not the first by whom the new is tried, nor the last to lay the old aside."    Timeless advice!

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