# St Barts Forums > Getting To St Barts Forum - Airlines, Ferry Service, Charters >  >  Risk of Single Engine and/or One Piloted Planes

## stbartshopper

We have friends who just lost one of their planes- a Cirrus. It is a one engine, one pilot plane and their pilot crashed and was killed in Dayton, Ohio several weeks ago. Our friends now have a family and company rule- no more flying on single engine and/or one pilot planes period. They are coming to St. Barth next Feb. and have eliminated Puerto Rico- Tradewinds as an option because the Pilatus is a single engine plane.
The Cirrus is probably the safest single engine plane around today but when the engine failed a couple of weeks ago, the plane was too low to use it's parachute and crashed. Our friends will fly their two engine two piloted jet to either St. Maarten or Anguilla. We told them both islands have two engine plane connections to SBH.
Would appreciate others' thought on putting their family and loved ones on single engine and/or one piloted planes vs. two or more engines and/or two piloted planes. We know the Pilatus company like the Cirrus company says they are safe but hey 'stuff' happens!

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## Islander

One major difference between a single-engine Cirrus and an single-engine Pilatus (or Caravan) is the type of engine.

The Cirrus has a piston engine: the Continental IO-550.
The Pilatus and the Caravan have a turbine engine: the Pratt & Whitney PT6, one of the most reliable engines in the world.

The likelihood of an engine failure on a piston engine is much higher than on a turbine engine.

It's probably much safer to fly on a Pilatus or Caravan than on a fully loaded Britten Norman Islander BN 2 (typical twin piston engine flown between St Maarten or Anguilla and SBH), as in case of engine failure, the remaining engine would struggle to keep the airplane in the air.

The critical phase of flight being the take-off on a no wind / hot and humid day / from SBH, with full load.

Now, the safest way to do this is to fly the De Havilland Twin-Otter, which is a twin turbine engine aircraft, flown by Winair. Out of St Maarten (SXM).

Number of pilots:

Only Winair and Tradewind Aviation provide two pilots on every flight. All the others are single-pilot operated. Though it is possible to request a second pilot on some of the charter companies (with extra $$).

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## Bart -my real name-

> Now, the safest way to do this is to fly the De Havilland Twin-Otter, which is a twin turbine engine aircraft, flown by Winair.



How many of those do they have?  

Can you book a flight specifically on that plane or is it the luck of the draw?

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## Islander

Winair only uses the Twin-Otter nowadays (they got rid of their Britten Norman Islanders). So if you book a flight on Winair, you are guaranteed to fly on the safest airplane there is to get to SBH. It does not have the fancy interiors of the Pilatus though.... But I guess everyone has different priorities... :thumb up:

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## Tiffany

That's why we've always flown Winair vs St Barth Commuter.

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## stbartshopper

Wow!- Now we know even though it may be more expensive, we will always book Win Air in the future. We were debating switching to St. Barth Commuter but now we clearly understand the advantages of the Twin Otter. 10 minutes each way in the safest airplane is worth the piece of mind. Thanks for the info.

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## PIRATE40

You all are worry warts, IMHO.....

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## kent1994

> You all are worry warts, IMHO.....



 :thumb up:

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## cec1

At the risk of stressing some people by the "message drift" inherent in this note, I'd like to observe how odd "worry wart" is as an expression . . . could the French have something comparable?  It's, of course, a phrase that we hear from childhood, but how could it have developed?

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## LMAC

solve the problem ... take the ferry

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## amyb

When I took my first flight my Dad took me aside and explained I should not fret too much. His words of wisdom included,"when your number's up, your number's up!"  Then he added in a softer voice,"the trick is not to fly on somebody else's number."

Safe travels friends!

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## Islander

> "when your number's up, your number's up!"



Love it amyb!

Maybe I should try that tomorrow.... with a P.A to my 200 passengers in the back, I believe the best time would be just before take off....! What do you think?

lol  :Triumphant:

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## LindaP

Great wisdom, Amy! 
When I was 16, it was 1968, and my dad piloted a Beechcraft Bonanza , with my 18 yr old brother as his co- pilot, and my mom and I in the back.  We flew from Albany, NY to Fresno, California. Now I guess I know why my mom seemed so nervous...the older I get , the more nervous I become. But, I still love flying; even more so in the smaller planes.    An aside ....
We were near El Centro, Ca. When we were dangerously low on fuel, so we landed on an airstrip that turned out to be an un marked Blue Angel airstrip. All I can remember is that they rushed out , said a few words to my dad, fueled us up, and we were on our way. 
A few weeks later, when we began our flight back home.....we flew over the base; but this time it was painted in huge white and blue lettering : BLUE ANGELS ......we all laughed.

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## shihadehs

We are going to be on a single engine Pilatus tomorrow afternoon and feel very confident that we will arrive safe and sound....

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## amyb

Wishing you a safe trip.

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## stbartslover

In college Army ROTC it was a group exercise to do a skydiving trip at a small airport with grass runways an hour from the university.  We practiced jumping down from a 12' tower into wood chips, learned how to control the chute (it was supposed to open automatically from a clip attached to a static line) and rolling as we landed.   As we boarded the tired looking aircraft with scratched, faded paint and no door or seats, the jumpmaster joked to us, myself included, who were pretty scarred:  "we've had 20,000 jumps here and just one fatality, but we're just about due for one", no one laughed along with him.

SBC since '95 no accidents----or Winair either from 60's....pretty good odds...

No guarantees, though: last crash on St Barth----an Air Carib: 2 pilot, Twin Otter in 2001, what appears to have been a perfectly good aircraft flown in to the hillside near Mayas.

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## LuckyKid

> …
> The Pilatus and the Caravan have a turbine engine: the Pratt & Whitney PT6, one of the most reliable engines in the world.
> …



And the De Havilland Twin-Otter is powered by two PT6 engines! My dad used to refer to the Otter as a air-Jeep. Built for rugged use, abundance of power, and reliability, but comfort not so much. Interesting that so many of the aircraft to SBH use the same PT6 turbine engine power.

I had a few business visits to Pratt & Whitney Canada's factory outside Montreal where the PT6 is manufactured. In an age of high speed manufacturing and robotic assembly most jet engines are built the old fashioned way. Assembled by hand, High skilled labor, extremely clean, orderly processes with obsessive quality control. It was a great experience to see.

I'll never worry about flying in any PT6 powered plane. But I still have a soft spot for the Twin-Otter.

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## Islander

> = No guarantees, though: last crash on St Barth----an Air Carib: 2 pilot, Twin Otter in 2001, what appears to have been a perfectly good aircraft flown in to the hillside near Mayas.



This is about the reliability of the engine (i.e. the PT6), not the pilot skills. 

Airplanes crash. That's a fact. Including high-tech airplanes such as the Boeing 777's (Malaysia MH370), or Airbus 330's (Air France AF447)....Both known as modern & reliable airplanes.

Unfortunately 70% of air crashes are still due to pilot error, including the one of Air Caraibes Twin-Otter in 2001. Give the pilots the best equipment there is, they'll still manage to crash!

The pilot on that particular flight engaged the props in "beta position" during the approach. A bad habit used by some pilots to increase drag / reducing speed, a technique (not recommended by the manufacturer) helping for short fields landings. 

Unfortunately with an engine failure, it is almost impossible to keep an airplane in the air when the live engine's prop is in beta position. That's exactly what happened on the TX flight 1501. A major piloting error that killed all passengers and crew (R.I.P).

In Saudi Arabia, every landing clearance issued by ATC is accompanied with a "Insha'Allah".... meaning "God willing". In other words, God will decide if the landing will be successful or not.

I do not believe in destiny when flying. I can't, as a pilot myself. I believe in pilot training, in reliability of engines and airplanes, and statistics. Modern aviation is about**: train for the worse, and avoid it. Destiny and god have nothing to do with it.

Now back to topic, the chance of having an engine failure on a twin piston-engine aircraft is higher than on a single engine turbo-prop aircraft. The chance of having an engine failure on a twin turbo-prop aircraft is higher than on a single engine turbo-prop aircraft (twice the chance in fact). 

The chance to get out of this kind of incident without any consequence (compared to all other types) is much higher on a twin turbine aircraft. Not me saying, the statistics saying. There is a reason why all modern airliners are equipped with twin-jet engines (the same technology used for turbo-props).

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## waynek

I am guessing that you are still way more likely to die in a car accident on the way to the airport, or in a car accident on SBH than on a single engine, single pilot plane.  I wonder how many people have died in car accidents in SBH since that 2001 crash?

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## Islander

> I am guessing that you are still way more likely to die in a car accident on the way to the airport, or in a car accident on SBH than on a single engine, single pilot plane.  I wonder how many people have died in car accidents in SBH since that 2001 crash?



You're right. Aviation is the safest mode of transportation (statistics wise). But that's not the point, nor the question raised.

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## SBCommuter

Some people are frightened by single engine operations. I am the airworthiness manager of St Barth Commuter, so I will give some information to reassure them.

An engine overhaul is requested every 3600 flight hours by the engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney.
We have a special agreement with P&W. Our engines are replaced every 1800 flight hours (half) with brand-new engines from factory. So, we could guarantee our engines are less than 3 years old from the manufacturing. It is an expensive deal, but safety first !

We have nothing to hide from our customers. I could show you our repair station (located on the other side of the runway), just send me a PM.

Michael

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## elgreaux

safety first, a very good policy!

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## amyb

Michael, thank you for this reassuring post. Keep up the good work!

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## Jim Kelly-Evans

"We have a special agreement with P&W. Our engines are replaced every 1800 flight hours (half) with brand-new engines from factory. So, we could guarantee our engines are less than 3 years old from the manufacturing. It is an expensive deal, but safety first !"

 :thumb up:  :thumb up:  :thumb up:

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## PIRATE40

....Every day hundreds of car crashes claim lives...most you never hear about, but, god forbid a plane has to make an emergency or cautionary off field landing and it is plastered all over the local papers. That is a true testament to aviation safety..we don't expect airplanes to crash because of their excellent maintenance and pilot training. We expect car crashes to happen on a daily basis even though modern autos are extremely safe..which leaves the "training" of the operator and the reckless operation  as the biggest difference....

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## Islander

> Some people are frightened by single engine operations. I am the airworthiness manager of St Barth Commuter, so I will give some information to reassure them.
> 
> An engine overhaul is requested every 3600 flight hours by the engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney.
> We have a special agreement with P&W. Our engines are replaced every 1800 flight hours (half) with brand-new engines from factory. So, we could guarantee our engines are less than 3 years old from the manufacturing. It is an expensive deal, but safety first !
> 
> We have nothing to hide from our customers. I could show you our repair station (located on the other side of the runway), just send me a PM.
> 
> Michael



Michael,

Are the engines still changed/ overhauled by Propel Aviation in Miami Executive airport? I met the CEO of Propel 2 weeks ago, and also had a chance to visit their facilities, escorted by the Chief of Maintenance. Needless to say that I was impressed by the quality displayed all around, including their hangar, equipment, and staff.

They actually told me that the 4 Caravans of SBC recently had the S.T.O.L kits installed....?

The P&W maintenance program for the PT6 is 100% reliable. I'm glad to hear that SBC is doing the best possible to ensure passengers are flown safely.

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## SBCommuter

Érik, 

We replace the engines with the assistance of the PRATT & WHITNEY mobile repair team. They build the engines, so they know how to rig them. 
 Our "old" engines are inspected (Hot Section Inspection) by Pratt & Whitney in Canada, then sold to another operator. 

STOL kits have been installed on our fleet last September with the Propel assistance. Those kits increase the take-off/landing performances and increase the payload.

Michael

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## ffosterm

Some of those twin otter airframes are getting really old!  If I'm not mistaken, Air Caraïbes had an airframe failure where the wing snapped off (extremely rare occurrence).  It had been patched up too many times and doublers can only do so much for those stress cracks.  I'd much prefer the pilatus or caravan.  I'd like to fly my bonanza to the island, but I'm too conservative to fly a piston single over open water.

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## cassidain

Bienvenue au forum, ffosterm

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## pascaleschmidt

Considering how many flights come in and out of St barts the odds are on safe flights.

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## Islander

> Air Caraïbes had an airframe failure where the wing snapped off (extremely rare occurrence).  It had been patched up too many times and doublers can only do so much for those stress cracks.



Welcome to the forum. 

Could you please elaborate about this particular incident?

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## TPunch42

I am far more worried about getting in a car. It is far more risky and now that I have a teenager on the road, I am more terrified of other drivers than ever. The number one way teens die... traffic accidents.   To be totally honest!  I am looking forward to flying into SBH on SB Commuter and am crossing my fingers to get to sit next to the pilot.. what a thrilling ride. SB Commuter pilots are excellent  as are their planes  and since they keep planes on the island overnight, more than once it has allowed us to get out on time in the morning when WIN AIR couldn't get their planes to SBH due to weather in SXM. They also have excellent customer service.  We changed our dates of travel this year to be sure we could fly with them.

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